Being with Being
Philosophy, contemplative practice, and the physics of nature's flow — for finding your own way. For those who don't need the added pressure of another's way, but are curious about ways of understanding, perceiving, and living that mesh with each other — and that only you can make your own.
Each episode is a complete live recording — typically around two hours — opening with a 15-30 minute inquiry into the session's theme, moving into an hour-long guided practice, and closing with comments and discussion. These explorations grew from years of my own searching — trying to fit into practices that promised relief, never quite finding home in any tradition, and stumbling upon a rational basis for getting traction on ways I don't have to try.
As your fellow explorer, I'm Mackenzie Hawkins — researcher in philosophy of physics, contemplative practitioner, and co-author of several books with physicist and Tai Chi Master Dr. Wonchull Park. Drawing from his nowflow philosophy, these series-based explorations use philosophy and physics as ways of understanding and perceiving what's here already.
Not ways to follow, but ways that might help you find your own — for anyone looking to explore beyond the pressures we put on ourselves.
Being with Being
What if Observer and Observed Are Inseparable? Beyond Just Stuff
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Today we will be getting into another level of juicy. This is where some people really, really go to town -- with quantum mechanics, interpretations around consciousness. There's even someone who tends to make claims that if there wasn't consciousness, there wouldn't be a moon. Because of quantum. Interesting, interesting.
We return to the double slit experiment -- and this time to a further strangeness in it. If you try to answer which slit the electron is going through by putting a little extra measuring detector on one of the slits, it no longer has the interference pattern. So somehow by trying to know which one it goes through, it reverts back to just one or the other. That's kind of strange in our more macroscopic world -- we're not so used to that sense that an observation, a measurement, a perceiving and experiencing, an interaction actually begins to hint at why it's maybe not as strange as we might think.
Because what is taking a measurement? I really appreciate how Master Park just always comes more to what is common, rather than emphasizing the differences. To be able to measure something means that there's some interaction that you have with it. To observe something, to touch something, to see something means you have some interaction with it. And interaction has an effect. You can never have just a one-sided interaction. If something is having an effect, it's also being affected. Pick any object in your space -- as you gaze at that object, there is a seamless mutual flow of interaction that enables you to have that visual perception. Photons reflecting off of that object are traveling through the space in between, interacting with your eyes, being translated into a signal. Every step of the way is that mutual flow. Shot through this world is all of this relational, mutual interacting of effects that breaks down that sense of separation between observer and observed...
Beyond Just Stuff Series: Maps, Mystery & Nature's Flow
What is it about quantum that lets us feel like physics gives us permission to view stuff as not just plain old mechanical stuff? One of the limitations that comes up in a body-centered practice is that we can have associations with the body as, you know, "it's just the body" -- and that blocks our fuller feeling of the magic of being a human being. As physicist and tai chi master Wonchull Park says, the map is not the terrain -- but we can use our maps to open more to the terrain as it actually is.
We move from the playfully imaginative through to some genuinely strange territory in physics, and arrive somewhere more ordinary and more immediate. But there's a question underneath it all that's worth sitting with: what is it that's actually shifting when we try on a new story about what we're made of? Is it the physics picture? Or is it a letting go of what we usually tell ourselves? Or some of both?
These six sessions explore that question from the inside out -- using maps, yes, and also learning to see through them, fall through them, and arrive at something that doesn't need a story to justify it. The mystery, it turns out, was never in danger. It's always untouched.
In these six explorations, each with an hour-long guided body-centered practice at its heart, we'll see what it might be like to peel back some of that "oh, I know my physical body, it's just stuff" -- to open to a richness that's already there, beneath what we think we know. No stamp of approval needed from any authority. Permission inherently granted.
Thank you for Being with Being.
beingwithbeing.org
mackenziehawkins.substack.com
So welcome. Sorry to be uh a bit late. Uh was all set to go. And then it said it could not connect to your virtual camera. Please restart your computer. And so here I am, one one reboot later. I often wonder if uh computers they sometimes just need a time out. This can be a very non-scientifically correct sense of um relating to relating to what's going on and beginning to question how does our own observation of it perhaps affect what is going on. And so this is a continuation of maps mystery and mundane physics, and today we will be getting into another level of juicy, and this is where some people really, really go to town with quantum uh mechanics interpretations around consciousness. There's uh even someone who who tends to make claims that you know if there wasn't consciousness there there wouldn't be a moon because of quantum. Interesting, interesting, and yet as our exploration here is all about, we are so often relating to our body, what we get to carry around with us, whether we relate to it as us, it's it's our body, and what we consider it to be, and how we consider it to be connected or not connected to mind, to awareness, to consciousness, these can all have an experiential impact because it's like we've been exploring, it's the map through which we then experience what it is that is there to be experienced, and if our map is limiting us in some way, then it's gonna be blocking out a fuller possibility of experience, and so we can get into this uh whole relation of mind and body, body and mind, consciousness, and you'll see how this can lend itself to a more in a way mundane picture of relational and informational universal aspects that go across subject and object, observer and observed. But for now, let's um kind of indulge a little bit in the the surprisingness of this. And if we return to our kind of progression of experiments that have been done in the lab, and we return back to the the double slit experiment yeah, electrons, and there's this double slit, and sometimes you have this, uh you just would have this, it was you know, individuals particles showing up on the detector screen and detect individual detections, and then at the same time it creates this overall interference pattern, like you might expect for a wave, so that it's not what we would expect if we were just you know beaming billiard balls through two slits, they would just land on the opposite side. It's something is something else, and then you know, one of the questions that we kind of teased ourselves with was well, you know, what what slit is it actually going through? And you know, if that you know one electron just goes, you know, well, which which slit is it going through? And the interesting thing is that if you try to answer that by putting a little extra uh measuring detector on one of the slits that it no longer has, it no longer has the interference pattern, so somehow by like trying to know which one it goes through, it reverts back to just one or the other rather than the interference pattern.
SPEAKER_00That's kind of strange in our more macroscopic world, we're not so used to that sense that an observation, a measurement, a perceiving, an experiencing, an interaction.
SPEAKER_02Well, actually, that kind of begins to hint at why it's maybe not as as strange as we might think. But if you know, if we're observing just like a pendulum swinging, that you know, we're we're not worried that our observation of it, well, I think just you, you know, usually we're not we're not worried that our observation of it is going to alter what that pendulum is doing. But when we get down to this much finer green level of reality, there's this way that taking a measurement. And what is taking a measurement? I really appreciate how Master Park just always always comes more to what is common rather than emphasizing the differences. And so we have you know the scientific enterprise, and then we have everyday living, everyday experience, and in a way, you know, measurement in the lab where you have that empirical data and experience in life, there one might be a little more finely honed in some regards, but they're on the same spectrum of things having an effect, to be able to measure something means that there's some interaction that you have with it, to observe something, to touch something, to see something means you have some interaction with it, and interaction leaves an effect, interaction has an effect, even as we were talking last time, it's always mutual interaction, you can never have just a one-sided interaction if something is having an effect, it's also being affected. And so just even returning to that example of a pendulum, or just pick any object in your space, and as you gaze at that object, it's just interesting to reflect on a sense of how there is a seamless mutual flow of interaction that enables you to have that visual perception, that photons reflecting off of that object are traveling through the space in between, interacting with your eye, being translated into a signal, and through some miracle we won't even get into, you know, is creates this image, and we can usually think of that as just one way, and that makes more sense because it's giving us the image in our in our brains. But at every step of the way, this is the the free flow plus the mutual flow, the super mundane physics of the locality of everything and the mutual action reaction of every interaction, every step of the way, is that mutual flow. And even the sense of the the limit of the speed of light is part of that picture that we can have that you know there's not this realm of information, observation, measurement effects that we usually kind of cluster as like separate, and then there's the rest of the world, the chunky stuff that shot through this world is all of this relational, mutual interacting of effects that break down that sense of separation between observer and observed. Sometimes Master Park talks about how there's kind of a sense of more elemental reality.
SPEAKER_00The stuff of our body. But that there's also information which can be helpful to talk about as information. There's such a subtlety to it. But that it doesn't have to be treated separately.
SPEAKER_02That it could be part of the flow of all of these mutual effects, and maybe it's it's finer and can encode more in various ways.
SPEAKER_00But that it's it's not separate. Um all this flow together.
SPEAKER_02And so without necessarily making any extraordinary claims about interpretations of quantum mechanics, though this relational and sense of information as part of this flow of what is physical is part of Rovelli's relational quantum mechanics interpretation.
SPEAKER_00And just even see how that lands for you, this sense of wait a second, we went from this kind of feeling of consciousness.
SPEAKER_02Maybe consciousness is underpinning it all, and in some very, very mysterious way, our observations matter.
SPEAKER_00Information is physical. Sometimes with a more mundane approach, there can be a a disappointment, even uh a fear. And that can be part of what we play with here too.
SPEAKER_02But what we also get to play with is that sense of practically and how we relate to our body and all kind of a body-centered meditation. What would it even be like to practice with less of a sense of mind up here and body just stuff down there? But that the entirety of all this flow together is part of the effects, the mutual effects, the relational effects that is information flow as well as a flow of nature, both there's some ways that this approach connects for me even to a Taoist kind of inner alchemy. We can just see see what comes up for us in this relating. Relating to more the commonality of all of experience rather than distinguishing observer and observed information and object, and where experience itself is just one great grand experiment.
SPEAKER_00Every little thing within it is just registering this ongoing ways that each little system, each little part is in this dance of neither subject nor object with each other. So that begin settle in. Observing the feeling of being in this room. Just maybe taking a couple of breaths, feeling into that familiarity. That sense of what's around you, your body, and what you may consider more like you peering out somehow to observe all of this. A map of this terrain includes something called a room, a body, and you just notice if, in the recognition of it as a map, you kind of feel like it has to belong in your head.
SPEAKER_02Another aspect of our map is that how our perception happens in our brain.
SPEAKER_00I'm not gonna argue against the, but that's just another part of our map.
SPEAKER_02And one way that we can more come to use our maps is to yes, experience them as maps, and perhaps even more experience them as we experience them rather than as we think we experience them.
SPEAKER_00Just feeling again the room, your body, even the sense of the observer, even the sense that this is all a map with an openness to how you're experiencing it. Actually, what if instead of all this sense of differences we keyed into just one common quality of everything in our map, the key to the map. Even the map also is part of all affecting and being affected experienced as distributed throughout space. Take a few nice out breaths, and really let yourself feel them lay down into the support beneath. Receive the support affected and being affected. Right there, isn't it? That feeling of affect and affected hands and lap happens there. Just notice if the sense of the observer feels like it has to go down to it. Somehow pushing your awareness down to your hands. Kind of funny thing to do than something that's already a map.
SPEAKER_02Do it all the time. Or maybe we kind of have more of a sense of sucking it up, like we have to suck up that feeling of our hands and get it into our mind's tricky, is it?
SPEAKER_00Is it is it a map or is it my hand in my lap? How can a map that I know to be in my mind feel so laid over the terrain of right where it is. But when we feel it, it's interesting to note that sense of where do we feel it? Where in space.
SPEAKER_02And even the back of your head. All the way to opposite your eyes at the back of your head. See if you're trying to look at the back of your head. All the way into the corners. Maybe seeing if that sense of the observer. Doing it for us. Each little thing. Hand and lap, seat and ground, spine all the way to the back of your head. In the flow of your map and connected to the flow of interaction in your body. All just affecting an affected flow. Nothing above it all. Each mutual flow is just taking care of its own affecting and being affected in its own way. And we experience what we experience. A little more into the feeling of your nose and the air coming in and out of it.
SPEAKER_00Perhaps while hanging out a little bit in the back of your head, or in your seat, or wherever you might want to hang out from the air flowing in, flowing out just there. The experience of it in our map is just there. We can feel there in the flow of our nose. Close enough. Flow of air, it's having some effect on our nose. And also being affected. So play along, see what it's like.
SPEAKER_02Invitation's going to be to actually just continue to feel what you feel, experience what you experience, but with that sense of your experiencing your math.
SPEAKER_00Flow of your map felt just as the same as the flow of experience at your nose. That's how you are experiencing. And then go back to just feeling your nose. Observing your air of breath at the nose, and then treat it as experiencing that miracle of your own map perception of your nose. It's an equivalent experience, one or the other.
SPEAKER_02School of Buddhism.
SPEAKER_00But it can be hopeful to see that we experience knows inseparably from the effects and affectedness of our maps of perception. Information all flowing together. Into the middle of you on the in-breath. And the gentle downward cascade of your chest on the outbreath. Yeah, kind of kind of alchemy. Letting there be the sense of space all around your body. The air coming down inside you. Front and back and sides.
SPEAKER_023D volume of your body, perhaps especially on the outbreath, a gentle cascade.
SPEAKER_00That's maybe of the observer. Observers. Or maybe it's beginning to feel more like the entire map itself is self-observing. Yeah, we can pull up a spotlight or an X marks a spot on our map. But that's not always needed. The map just keeps going on being affected. And since it's this flow of nature, too, it is affecting all mutual flow affecting right what is nearest to it. So fine.
SPEAKER_02That's just an analogy. The experience itself is what it is.
SPEAKER_00Right there in the map. Touched by the air right there. Sometimes Master Park calls this a kind of subject comfort, no longer treating our body like the object of our attention. Each little part and particle gets to be its own subject. Above the palms. Slightly elongating the thumbs, wraps, to breathe out, and then doing so for the next finger. And uh total miracle. Can you use loud language? Your fingers where they are in your experience.
SPEAKER_02But we feel that correspondence in our maps, corresponding to this terrain. Our maps themselves of these five mutual flows in our fingers are also fine mutual flows affecting and being affected. Actually like too much while everyone unimaginably small and fine interaction. It's own its own observer. So it's always inseparable from anything it observes. Right where that interaction happens in a space in the whole room.
SPEAKER_00That body. The experience of body is also equivalent to the experience of our map itself. The content of what it corresponds to might be, yes, my my hands on my lap, my seed on the ground. Stuff. Objects. But I'm never actually being affected by and affecting stuff like objects. Without it connecting through the finest of fine miracle maps. Recognize them for what they are.
SPEAKER_02Ah, it's just my body, just stuff. Or how various maps with various permissions and authorities, such as the maps of science, can help us go like wow, there's it's more for us to feel. This is coming from the teaching of Master Wancho Park.
SPEAKER_00And now flow qualities, a free mutual whole, and that that kind of lets us simply keep approaching the terrain.
SPEAKER_02It's just this kind of ongoing approaching without limit, just like when we feel the free flow at our nose, that there's no final flow that we feel. And maybe no, this is not the you know typical way that people use quantum mechanics around observer and consciousness and these kinds of things.
SPEAKER_00Um maybe it can be a a gateway, especially the Rovelli's relational quantum mechanics interpretation can entice us with this.
SPEAKER_02It's cool. Anyway, it's it's for me, it's a it's a really strikingly beautiful picture. And perhaps one that again helps us play with our maps in a way that we find for ourselves the way that we wield our our maps, the way we acknowledge them. That can be uh just make make more of what there is, let it let it come through come through our maps. Uh thank you for uh practicing here with me. I'm glad I didn't fall asleep during during the way down park. And if you have any any questions or comments. Oh Emily! I'm so glad to see you back. I was just thinking about you the other day. Uh hello, Emily. So it's so good to be here again. I feel as though my inner landscape is shifting and the corresponding maps are being redrawn. I appreciate how you encourage open curiosity with this exploration. That sounds fun. The corresponding maps are being redrawn. Yeah, I think you know, I mean, you all I most of you already know from me, like I'm I'm exploring right here along with you. So this is I I have my biases as you know, I have my opinions. And I wouldn't also have just some good fun when we come up and see. Um so Matt, hi hi David, you were rebooting yourself. Yeah. Um, welcome. Uh Firefly sound only in one earbud. Any way to switch setting from stereo mono? Hmm.
SPEAKER_00See if there's something on my end. Oh. I'm sorry. Yeah, that's on me. That's on me.
SPEAKER_02In my uh reboot. Um in my reboot, I uh came on and I didn't uh increase the quality of the the video and the sound. Sorry, Firefly. And for you too, okay. Yeah, yeah. Uh Fireflies jumped 23 minutes ago. Oh but thank you for always letting me know about the tack that says. Um fun to be on the other side. Uh aloha, Matt says, hi, Swiss, back to Swiss R. Swiss R, good to see you. And uh JV, good to see you, Emily. Yeah, good to see you. Yes, let's make it playful and fun when we can. I'm all, all, all for that. All right. Uh any uh burning questions. Any burning questions about uh quantum observation that I will not be able to answer. David says, I'm feeling like I'm starting to understand the parts of my maps that have faded in the sunshine.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Just tend to Yeah. It's interesting to sometimes watch children, right?
SPEAKER_02They're just so fully so fully engaged, and I think overall we tend to gradually over the years let parts of our map fade, and we're like, yeah, I know, I know what I'm supposed to feel, I know what I should do, I know how it should be, and then we kind of make our own uh prison in a way from our maps, and some of what having some fun, some playful fun like this enables us though. Maybe we can be a little more in the discovery mode, like those kids and recover parts of our maps, and we just always why yeah, that's the that's the key question. Yeah, like just like those kids ask, why? Why is it like that? Why and why is that no? I do not I do not have any answers. Myisha says this has been such an enjoyable series. Oh well thanks for thanks for sharing that. Sometimes I wonder, I'm like, good gracious. Are you really doing a series like this?
SPEAKER_00Like, yeah, yeah, it's fun.
SPEAKER_02Alright, well, I don't know how many more of these we'll do, but definitely have I think one up for next week that can always give me feedback about some adventures that you might like to go on, and uh have a few that I'm perkling on myself. So David says I've tried to hold on to being six and having that uh inquisitive approach to life. Yeah. I say you've you've been holding on pretty good, David. My my own encounters with you. And if if any of this is like a little bit like what is she talking about? You know, free mutual hole, this or that. Um, do you have free tracks on Insight Timer that you know break them down a little more slowly? Yeah, we use them as the the jumping off place for our adventures. Varane, thank you very much. Really enjoyable as always. Thank you. All right, well, till next time, my best to y'all, and take care.