Being with Being
Philosophy, contemplative practice, and the physics of nature's flow — for finding your own way. For those who don't need the added pressure of another's way, but are curious about ways of understanding, perceiving, and living that mesh with each other — and that only you can make your own.
Each episode is a complete live recording — typically around two hours — opening with a 15-30 minute inquiry into the session's theme, moving into an hour-long guided practice, and closing with comments and discussion. These explorations grew from years of my own searching — trying to fit into practices that promised relief, never quite finding home in any tradition, and stumbling upon a rational basis for getting traction on ways I don't have to try.
As your fellow explorer, I'm Mackenzie Hawkins — researcher in philosophy of physics, contemplative practitioner, and co-author of several books with physicist and Tai Chi Master Dr. Wonchull Park. Drawing from his nowflow philosophy, these series-based explorations use philosophy and physics as ways of understanding and perceiving what's here already.
Not ways to follow, but ways that might help you find your own — for anyone looking to explore beyond the pressures we put on ourselves.
Being with Being
Being Time: Reclaiming Flow for Being - No Time, No Problem?
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
So I'll begin with a passage where Dogen says: "Although you never measure the length or brevity of the twelve hours, their swiftness or slowness, you still call them the twelve hours. As evidence of their going and coming is obvious, you do not come to doubt them." I remember having those school schedules — you know, your day mapped out, blocked, A period, B period, C period, and it's down to the very minute. And we can grow up in this and not have any doubts about this sense of that we are living in time. The comings and goings, the goings and comings of the passage of time can just seem quite obvious to us, so that though we might have doubts about many things, they don't necessarily tend to converge on this doubt about time passing. And today's exploration is going to be about coming to question, doubt in a way. Why we take this flow of experience and, in a way, hand it over to this flow of time, this sense that there is time passing. And then what is that time? And how does that shift my relation to my own experience once flow belongs to time rather than flow belongs to the being of what is?
Perhaps a bit unfairly, Newton usually gets the blame for the modern-day sense of why we tend to have this sense of abstract and flowing time. So he says in his opening of the Principia: "Absolute, true, and mathematical time, in and of itself, of its own nature, without reference to anything external, flows uniformly, and by another name is called duration." It's a powerful way that he was able to bring together so much of what was known piecemeal into physical theory of everything from an apple falling to the moon orbiting around us. The power of being able to model the world in this way can get us swept up in the mathematics: There is this mathematical t, this t variable, flowing, flowing in its own passage by its own nature.
And what I was hinting at before and would suggest is that the way we use time just tends towards that sense of giving the flow over to time. And this was the case, it seems, way back in the day when Aristotle was first questioning about time. He writes: "Now the most obvious thing about time is that it strikes us as some kind of passing along and changing." And then this is where he goes further than what our assumptions are. Because if I have that sense of time, everything seems to be changing in time and so time is what seems to be flowing. But he says: "If we follow this clue, we find that when any particular thing changes or moves, the movement or change is in the moving or changing thing itself and occurs only where that thing is. Whereas the passage of time is current everywhere alike and is in relation to everything."
Well, that's kind of interesting, right? So once we have the sense of time, passage and flow of time — it seems like everything, just everything is flowing, passing in time. But if we really touch in on something that's changing or in motion, it's always the particular. Always a particular thing that's moving or changing and only occurs where that thing is.
With that in mind, let's pop back over to Dogen and "Being-Time" and explore why he might say "Hence pine trees are time, so are bamboos. You should not come to understand that time is only flying past." Let's see what it's like to reclaim flow from time.
No Time, No Problem?
An Honest Look at “Timelessness” in Physics and Living
What if there’s no time—and that’s not a problem for physics? What if there’s no time—could that be a solution for our suffering?
Rather than offering answers of what to think, this series offers ways of thinking that can move us past the pressures we put on ourselves: from the “should” of trying to “be present” to the “should” of being 4D spacetime worms to be compatible with relativity! Somewhere between those “shoulds,” I got stuck until physicist and Tai Chi Master Wonchull Park showed me how to think about nature simply, livably. Each session includes an hour-long meditation practice, where we get to try on different conceptions and perceptions of time to discover how equivalently valid options that physics provides can impact our levels of illusion and freedom. We’ll be reading together from a few sources—such as Wonchull Park’s Essential Reality & Time, Carlo Rovelli’s The Order of Time, Eckhart Tolle’s The Power of Now, Dogen’s Shobogenzo Uji—to deeply question the role(s) of time in our lives. Looking forward to our discoveries.
Thank you for Being with Being.
beingwithbeing.org
mackenziehawkins.substack.com
Welcome, welcome to No Time, no problem, and we're going to be diving in today. Why not? With uh being time, Dogen Zenji's Sobogenzo Uchi. And I'll be reading from uh Being Time, a Practitioner's Guide to Dogen's Sobogenzo Uchi by Shinzu Roberts. And the translation that I'll be reading that's within this book is um by Waddell and a in case you'd like to follow along or come back to it. So this may seem like a steep ascent. We went from last time feeling changing spatial relations and some Galilean basic relativity. Motion is always a relative motion, and today we are going into what is sometimes called like a Mount Everest of a of a text. So we can both take that in and also almost in a way in the in the spirit of this text. Or what we think it should be like and more just about our own exploration and discovery of this. So I'll begin with a passage where Dogen says, although you never measure the length or brevity of the twelve hours, their swiftness or slowness, you still call them the twelve hours. As evidence of their going and coming is obvious, you do not come to doubt them.
SPEAKER_01But even though you do not have doubts about them, that is not to say you know them.
SPEAKER_02Since a sentient being's doubting of the many and various things unknown to him are naturally vague and indefinite, the course of his doubtings will probably not bring them to coincide with this present doubt. So we go about our days and we use this markings of time so that you know if I want to meet a friend, I need to give a spatial location. Maybe it's the name of a place that we both know, maybe it's coordinates. If we were two astronauts in outer space, we'd have to give the relative positions, and you know, we'd have to have at least three numbers for the for the 3D space, and we'd need another number, a fourth number of time. And it's something that we can live our lives within. Remember having those school schedules, you know, your day mapped out, blocked, a period, b period, c period, you know, and it's down to the very minute. And we can grow up in this and not have not have any doubts about this sense of that we are living in time, and that somehow I mean it just it seems obvious, you know, just as as Dogan says, the the um comings and goings. Right? The comings and goings, the goings and comings of the passage of time. It just can seem seem quite obvious to us, so that though we might have doubts about many things, they don't necessarily tend to converge on this doubt about wait a wait wait a second here. And today's exploration is going to be about coming to question doubt in a way why we take this flow of experience and in a way hand it over to this flow of time, this sense that there's time passing.
SPEAKER_01And then what what is that time?
SPEAKER_02And how does that shift my relation to my own experience once flow belongs to time rather than flow belongs to what is what is the being of what is and I I'd say it's um so I'm gonna bring in a couple other I can't help myself alright? So um I think Newton kind of a little a little unfairly, I will say, gets a little bit of uh of the blame for modern day of why we tend to have this sense of uh abstract and flowing time. And certainly, as we will get into more with the physics, he took that sense that we can have intuitively of okay, well, I'll get to that in a moment when I come back to how this may have gotten be closer to our own experience than we tend to tend to think about, but uh Newton really took that sense of the flow of time and in his Punkipia, he he really uh made it part of the powerful way that he was able to take so much of what was known piecemeal and bring it all together into a description, a real physical, predictive description of everything from an apple falling to the moon orbiting around us. So he says in his opening of the Principia absolute, true, and mathematical time in and of itself and of its own nature without reference to anything external flows uniformly, and by another name is called duration, absolute, true, and mathematical time in and of itself and of its own nature without any interacting with anything else. This is where Einstein was gonna come in and be like, wait a second, here um flows, it flows. Interesting. So this time flows and the the power of being able to model the world in this way, you know, very easy to get swept up in yes, there is also this T this T variable flowing. And this can be part of a space-time picture where time has this sense of a dimensional time that is where the flow is happening and is flowing past us, flowing in its own passage by its own nature. And what I was, you know, hinting at before and would suggest is that in our own experience the way we use time just tends towards that sense of giving giving the flow over to time. And this was true uh, at least experientially it seems. Um, you know, way back in the day when when Aristotle was first, you know, it's just so wonderful to see the questioning about time arise. And he writes, now the most obvious thing about time is that it strikes us as some kind of passing along and changing. Oh, yeah, most obvious thing about time is that it strikes us as some kind of passing along and changing. And then this is where he he goes further than what our assumptions are, right? Because if I have that sense of time, then it's like I'm measuring time with respect to the seasons, with respect to uh my motion, with respect to your emotion, everything seems to be changing in time, and so time is what seems to be flowing. But he says if we follow this clue, we find that when any particular thing changes or moves, the movement or change is in the moving or changing thing itself, and occurs only where that thing is. Whereas the passage of time is current everywhere alike and is in relation to everything. That's kind of interesting, right? So once we have the sense of time, passage and flow of time, it seems like everything, just everything is flowing passing in time. But if we really touch in on something that's changing or in motion, it's always a particular thing. It's always a particular thing that's moving or changing and only occurs where that thing is.
SPEAKER_01Let's pop back over to some Dogen. So one of the things that he talks about in being time is also this sense of Dharma position. That it just is right where it is. And it is Uji Which is a word that is translated as being time.
SPEAKER_02It can have just uh even the more colloquial sense of at a time or sometimes or once or while these kinds of things. An occurrence.
SPEAKER_01We'll stick with the sense of the being time.
SPEAKER_02And we'll go a little further in in this reading and see how he directs us towards this being time of the many things, which he refers to as grasses, right? Numerous grasses. Just if I start talking about the grasses, it's the it's the many things. And they're each in their own dharma position. Since such is its fundamental reason, we must study and learn that myriad phenomena and numerous grasses things exist over the entire earth, and each of the grasses and each of the forms exists as the entire earth. These comings and goings are the commencement of Buddhist practice. When you have arrived within this field of suchness, it is a single grass, a single form.
SPEAKER_01The forms are understood and not understood. The grasses are grasped and not grasped. And how the particular each particular thing is the entire thing, in a way. So that this sense of being time can be the global time, but it can also be the being time of a particular form.
SPEAKER_02And that their nature is shared and one of the clear signs that we're not uh limiting our sense of our maps of what something can be is that we're not saying, ah, it's grasped. It can be understood and not understood, grasped and not grasped.
SPEAKER_01As the time right now is all there ever is. Each being time is without exception the entire time.
SPEAKER_02Maybe it would be helpful at this stage too to set Dogen aside for a moment and pick up a childhood game that Master Wanchel Park uses, and this is what uh is in uh chapter 10 of Way of Now. So if you humor me, we'll just make a fist for the childhood game of rock. And then flatten the handout for paper. And then making the kind of like a peace sign for our scissors. So this is for those of you who are familiar, the the game rock, rock, paper, scissors, shoo. Uh you can may have played as you were growing up as a kid.
SPEAKER_01Rock paper scissors. I mean pretty ordinary rock paper scissors. And what Master Park would say sometimes is Yeah, this is your hand. It's also in a way no different than the entire universe. You go from rock to paper to scissors. There's change. Yet this is your hand. This is the immediacy of your hand. This could be the entire universe unfolding.
SPEAKER_02As you continue, if you would like. I'll continue reading some token as you study your own hand. Repeating, he says, as the time right now, is all there ever is. Each being time is without exception, entire time.
SPEAKER_01Try it as your hand, try it as the universe.
SPEAKER_02A grass being and a form being are both times.
SPEAKER_01Entire being. Of each. Every now.
SPEAKER_02If I do rock, paper, scissors for like. Well, just like a long time with that line. Entire being. Entire being of your hand, the entire being of the universe, whatever it is that you want this to represent.
SPEAKER_01Entire world. This time in each and every now.
SPEAKER_02Just reflect right now. Is there an entire being or an entire world missing from your present time or not?
SPEAKER_01Is anything missing from your present time? Or not?
SPEAKER_02And might be like, wait a second, you know, a moment ago it was fist.
SPEAKER_01And now it's paper. It will be scissors.
SPEAKER_02But if I actually am taking this to be the entirety of my hand, there's no hand as rock.
SPEAKER_01No hand as scissors. Reflect.
SPEAKER_02Is there an entire being or an entire world missing from your present time or not?
SPEAKER_01So are ants or time.
SPEAKER_02He continues, hence, pine trees are time. So are bamboos. You should not come to understand that time is only flying past. So the pine trees, the bamboos, the forms of the many things, the many grasses, your hand, everything that is the being time. You should not come to understand that time is only flying past. You should not only learn that flying past is the virtue inherent in time. If time were to give itself to merely flying past, it would have to leave gaps. You fail to experience the passage of being time and hear the utterance of its truth because you learn only that time is something that goes past. I'm just gonna use something as the as the subject, the verb, and the uh object of this one sentence. Entirely worlding the entire world with the whole world is thus called penetrating exhaustively.
SPEAKER_01We will experiment with what it might like to get some glimpse of this, perhaps with our hands.
SPEAKER_02Entirely worlding the entire world with the whole world is thus called penetrating exhaustively.
SPEAKER_01May like just to have the the hands a little open face on the lap. Maybe a bit of both beginning to settle into the feeling of the body. Noticing we feel that happening where some of the flow of it is given over to time. Time that's passing by whether we more feel the immediacy of the body breathing being a particular changing thing in space, each moment having its own complete spatial relation. We can sit like a mountain. Twenty-four hours. Relative to some other thing, the sun, center of the Milky Way. Bodying our body completely. Just because that's the way it very well may be happening. For this, we'll turn first to seeing what it's like to just feel one blade of wrath. Use that evocative language. One thing that also has everything. Part just to be a little more into it first, which is just feeling our thumbs on both hands. Instead of looking down at our thumbs as an object of meditation an appreciation that our thumbs just already are right there. We leave them right there, right where they are, right in the space that they're taking up the three D spatial relation from their very tip to the edges.
SPEAKER_02Of your thumb can both become more vivid and way more permeated through this one whole space with that feeling that just lets you know my thumb is there, and I leave it there.
SPEAKER_01All the way to its fingertip. Every nook and cranny of it completely where it is right now left right where it is. Not in time, not some fleeting experience as time passes us by penetrated through and through in the utter completeness of its being now. Um ahead that's bringing this fuller sense of being into our fingers. If anything, it's our head kind of just getting out of the way, letting ourselves more feel the body without some of our visual concepts, overlays. So very ordinary. Right, right.
SPEAKER_02So easy to try and grasp the fingers.
SPEAKER_01It's harder to grasp just the space in between. In a way, we feel into it even more. Drop into the space between our fingers. Can even synchronize that micro movement with the breath while just basking in the sense of the space between the two fingers on both hands.
SPEAKER_02Most of the time, our sense of change is quite blurred as you do this micro movement with your fingertips feeling into the distance, the spatial relation between them, that's really dropping into the way that the fingertips are just in.
SPEAKER_01So the distance in between is always just one distance.
SPEAKER_02Let's count twelve of these micro oscillations of our fingertips, maybe accompanied by twelve breaths.
SPEAKER_01Numbers are certainly a convenience. Even in practice, they can be a convenient tool. And did the numbers begin to take some of the flow? Take out a little bit of the fullness of the flow, just the fingers. Interesting to notice. Completely just what it is. Now, even this stillness, it may be more conducive to that exhaustive, complete penetrating of just what it is. Weigh in. Well, maybe it was easier actually to feel as with some flow of movement more evident. In our explorations or building our own toolkit for how to explore, this I had my eyes closed. As it can be easier to feel on the inside, that sense less. I'm actually really curious. I'd like to look upon these and pointer fingers that are being time. Opening the eyes. No different being time. Anything and everything can be a clock. Precision using my uh circles as a clock. We are a clock. Maybe bringing your hand in and slowly making a fist. The whole world and be the whole universe. Let's watch the watch the universe and look for the flow of time. Whole body mind. And letting that rest. And coming down to lying down. If that works for you, resting into the support of the earth. Perhaps a different way of relating to time, relating to your fingers. Penetratingly the being right where they are as being time. Each and every little thing, each and every part and particle, each and every one of us, and every thing in our room. All of nature itself in time to just fly and rest as I will sit up and reread and go just a few sentences further. Just seeing what lands for you here. As the time right now is all there ever is. Each being time is without exception entire time. A grass being and a form being are both times. Entire being, the entire world exists in the time of each and every now. Just reflect. Right now, is there an entire being or an entire world missing from your present time or not? Hence pine trees are time. So are bamboos.
SPEAKER_02You should not come to understand that time is only flying past. You should not only learn that flying past is the virtue inherent in time. If time were to give itself to merely flying past, would have to leave gaps. You fail to experience the passage of being time and hear the utterance of its truth because you learn only that time is something that goes past.
SPEAKER_01Entirely worlding the entire world with the whole world is thus called penetrating exhaustively.
SPEAKER_02And I'll read a little further to immediately manifest the bodying of the tall golden Buddha with the body of the tall golden Buddha as the arising of the religious mind as practice, as enlightenment, as nirvana.
SPEAKER_01That is being that is time. One does nothing but penetrate exhaustively entire time as entire being.
SPEAKER_02On a still broader plane, the times before and after one immediately manifests the blunder, are both, along with it, dwelling positions of being time. The sharp, vital, quick of dharmas dwelling in their dharma positions is itself being time.
SPEAKER_01You must not, by your own maneuvering, make it into nothingness. You must not force it into being. So it seems like it's not something we need to try for or manipulate for. But that there's this possibility that this is the way. The way it is. And even if we only feel it partially, even that partial feeling is itself a part of being not a part of, but is being done. So then I think perhaps one of the questions among likely many is well, is this the way that nature is? The way of pine trees and bamboos. And what does science say?
SPEAKER_02And is there a way for those of us who are not maybe more prone to uh feeling of faith or belief?
SPEAKER_01Is there an understanding that could support this sense that it's not about us trying to not about us manipulating it into something forcing it or saying it's a nothingness. And that's what we'll pick up next time.
SPEAKER_02So I'll take my little library that I have in front of me and come over and see how you all are doing with this. What questions are coming here, as well as comments about your own experience of uh this exploration. Oh well, have we really been going? We've been going almost two hours. Talk about the time passing. Hello, hello vagabond Jane. Hello Iris, hello and welcome. I don't know if I've seen you before, Jane says hello Mackenzie, Vagabond Iris, and all the other people. Yeah, thank you for connecting here with our little community of ex-plorers. What else could we call ourselves? David has his uh magic emojis, Emily. Hey, good to see you. Christopher says the tone and cadence of your speech is so calming and comforting, almost hypnotic and trance-inducing. Your voice is truly a gift.
SPEAKER_01Oh. Thank you, Christopher.
SPEAKER_02Christopher also says, just like the topography of our world on a map, our hand has similar topography with lines, formations, valleys, plateaus, forests of hairs. You really studied the back of your hand, looks like. Yeah. I've done this several times with myself over many years, and every time it's like, what this is my hand?
SPEAKER_01It's like I've never seen it before.
SPEAKER_02Firefly says, Thanks for the exploration. I found it's harder to relate to time than space in meditation. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, maybe that's part of the good news here.
SPEAKER_02Wait a second, you know, this is not really about time. This is just feeling the spaces between things in our room and our body, and some of you already began to have that sense that when we feel more of that space, kind of timelessness can kind of creep in. And here, yeah, we were we were diving into uh Dogen, who I am definitely reading through the lens of uh Master Wancho Park's teaching. Um that is part of what the end of this series, you know, you get to take whatever it is you've learned. I think we're always looking at what we are reading or hearing or learning through what we have uh come to understand um or the directions, our own toolkit. So this can be a a part of your toolkit too, and also just want to acknowledge that you know that is has its limits as well because it's we're overlaying a map of what we understand onto a lot that we probably don't, and acknowledging that not up here claiming that I understand what Doken uh Zenji is saying in Sobogenzo Uchi, but I'm in for the ride for exploring it here, and so some of what we can come to feel with a sense of say being time, just even to connect it a bit to our previous exploration, you know. In this reading that I'm laying on, there's there's maybe not so much difference between changing spatial relations, which sounds pretty dry, but as we felt into it felt pretty cool, and this sense that we can reclaim from this kind of abstract flow of time passing that the flow actually belongs to the being, and that the being is not being in time, but one way to kind of affirm that is to say that it is being time. Yes, I can just see if there's yeah, nothing we have to force or try for, but maybe there's a way that it's okay that it's easier to relate to uh space than it is to time and meditation. Maybe that's even telling us something about the nature of what is.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you, F, for Firefly, for that.
SPEAKER_02Um David, this is opening up a lot of new things that I probably want to think about further, and I probably have time to do that unless I've just been doing that with the time we've been experiencing now, and these thumbs have been more important. Yeah, we've got some amazing thumbs now. Yeah, I mean, I hope that that's these sessions can just if anything, they give kind of that spark of like, huh. I like we we go about our days and and even our meditations, you know, like set the timer, gonna meditate 20 minutes. And for me, I even notice such a difference when I'm feeling like I'm like even just counting the breath or feeling like I'm breathing in time versus like breath is being time, maybe because I tend to kind of feel more antsy, um, especially with breathing. Um so it's like uh I kind of gotta get through, gotta do enough even with my breathing. Maybe the contrast is um less pronounced for others who are a little um less wound up than I am. Uh Firefly says, appreciate you rereading at the end. Maybe something to add to every session since many new people join along the way. Yeah, the religious texts are so dense and much harder to grasp than science for me. Alright.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And it's it's interesting, right?
SPEAKER_02Like text like this, you know, you almost have that sense of where uh Dogen is wanting to help create that sense of understood and non-understood, grasped, not grasped, and um and that's okay.
SPEAKER_01That's okay.
SPEAKER_02And then when we have the sense of um in science, you know, it's like we usually explain things to be understood and to be able to kind of more uh agree with each other. And as we talked about last time, some of the ways that we'll be using that ability in science to communicate, communicate concretely and uh more objectively. We'll talk about what that might mean. Um, is that there can be a moment where you're like, yeah, I understand that. I understand that physics, I understand that. And what's also interesting here is because we're playing with understanding also as on the spectrum of a map that can include perception, that we're not just gonna stop at the science understanding. Oh, yeah, that's the equation I can solve for.
SPEAKER_01It works. But see what the meaning of it is when we more feel into it as well.
SPEAKER_02Vervein says it's difficult to grasp as it's so counterintuitive. Our sense of time is something we're in is deeply ingrained.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Is it is it really true that we could have no time and no problem? We function. We function, and that's where we get to, you know, see what it is that we use with time. That's why we even have that. Like we got we can we can we can keep our clocks we can meet you know next week at our usual time and we can come together from all over the world and be like yeah and and it's uh so it's a real investigation of what what we don't need what do we not need actually in in physics what do we actually maybe interferes in our fuller living and perception in in daily living as well Firefly says same counting breathing equals stressful Yeah Yeah it's it's so helpful to see and and and be curious as like what what's going on there And instead of it being like oh there's you know one way to do it that's uh interesting to have these sense of well is that is that even exacerbating a sense of the the time like this timeline with the numbers on it and their timelines flowing past me fly it's a good lesson for me to not be so attached to understanding pretty attached to understanding Again I don't tend towards uh an ability to you know just believe or believe in something because it's nice to believe in something or because someone is so and so and so it'd be a good idea to believe them. And so I mean like I'd I I would have narrowly the foggiest idea of what uh what even would be evoked in me uh reading Ndogen Soboga and Zoo Uji without what I've learned from Master Wancho Park. And I can understand what Master Wancho Park is saying because he's not trying to make it like a Zen Koan. He actually is like he could un everyone anyone can understand this grade school kids have understood it. But that understanding is like there's so many then layers to understanding there's the understanding of the concept like oh I could agree with that that makes rational good sense and then um you know there's the understanding of the yeah where do you you know understanding and perception again not as separate as we tend to think so what's the fuller feeling so that it's not just like a recipe of labels in my mind that I can see the relations conceptually but that it actually gets to inform my whole experience.
SPEAKER_01Vervain says as is understanding I think I may have lost the thread on them yeah I think that relates to your previous comment as well.
SPEAKER_02David says I don't think I I'll need to set an alarm again yeah please don't you know blame me and the series for showing up late to work okay not wanting to get y'all fired firefly lol yes then calls kill me says david rock paper or scissors which one a little bit back and forth uh says deeply ingrained yeah yeah deeply ingrained is understanding and I do feel like there's also just something like because it's so striking right like even in Aristotle's time like so before there was clocks everywhere and before kids you know grew up there was no you know no you know wristwatches there was no seconds there was no hours even you know there was just like water clocks and the celestial movements even back then there was that sense of time is something that's out there flowing past because it relates to everything and we're really kind of returning even in this day and age where we have all this kind of more abstract time and atomic clocks and our clocks are all synced and we have time zones and it's like time is like we live in this conditioning of time. But it is just so striking like even before all that there was just this sense of giving away to something abstract the immediacy of flow and maybe that even has something to do with what we do with ourself identity of ourself. Yeah Fireplace I was not sure I should share that on Insight Timer Yeah well see one could always interpret it you know then co-ons kill you well that's what they're out to do right break break through so you can always interpret it you're I think you're safe because we can always and we can always interpret it it's it's uh highly uh interpretive so we can always make it work out well thanks so much all for for joining and uh we will be diving in I'm pretty sure to uh physics next time what can we say about the way of nature with the backing of established physics so that will shore up some of our understanding that we then get to feel into so till next time thanks so much take care